En fait il y a combien de versets unique dans le coran ?

Tout ce qui ne rentre pas dans les autres subdivisions du forum - Exprimez vous et débattez entre vous - dans le respect de l'autre.
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goul
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Les versets sataniques

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Les incrédules, fatigués de la prédication du Prophète, l'appelèrent à la mosquée…(suite sur la page scannée du livre de Tabari: histoires des Prophètes et des Rois page 461

Copiez l'image sur votre disque dure et l'agrandir pour pouvoir lire le texte


Image

L'histoire des versets sataniques a longtemps été dissimilée par nos fouqaha (traduire savants sans Nobel). Ce n'est qu'après la sortie du livre de Salman Rushdie (conjonction entre Salman El Farissi et Ibn Rushd) que l'histoire a refait surface. Salman Rushdi a reçu en plein figure une fatwa qui le condamnait a mort pour avoir osé rappeler aux musulmans un évènement que le Coran confirme :

Al-Hajj(22) Ayat No: 52
Nous n'avons envoyé, avant toi, ni Messager ni prophète qui n'ait récité . (ce qui lui a été révélé) sans que le Diable n'ait essayé d'intervenir [pour semer le doute dans le cœur des gens au sujet] de sa récitation. Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère, et Allah renforce Ses versets. Allah est Omniscient et Sage.

Alors pourquoi tout ce cinéma ?

Tout simplement parce cette histoire remet en cause l'un des piliers de leur religion depuis la disparition des Mutazilites, à savoir l'infaillibilité du Coran et par conséquent d'Allah, qui est à la base même de la théologie musulmane.
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Re: Les versets sataniques

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Hallucinant ce texte - La preuve que les imbéciles aussi peuvent changer d'avis !!
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Salman Rushdie

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Bon je vois que les mensonges de Salman Rushdie refont surfaces, pour te contredire je vais tout simplement me servir de quelques petits versets,comme toi...mais qui en disent grand

**************

44. Et s'il avait forgé quelques paroles qu'ils Nous avaient attribuées,

45. Nous l'aurions saisi de la main droite,

46. ensuite, Nous lui aurions tranché l'aorte.

47. Et nul d'entre vous n'aurait pu lui servir de rempart. Coran 69.44.

**************

Dis : "Il ne m'appartient pas de le changer de mon propre chef. Je ne fait que suivre ce qui m'est révélé. Je crains, si je désobéis à mon Seigneur, le châtiment d'un jour terrible". Coran 10.15

**************

73. Ils ont failli te détourner de ce que Nous t'avions révélé, [dans l'espoir] qu'à la place de ceci, tu inventes quelque chose d'autre et (l'imputes) à Nous. Et alors, ils t'auraient pris pour ami intime.

74. Et si Nous ne t'avions pas raffermi, tu aurais bien failli t'incliner quelque peu vers eux

75. Alors, Nous t'aurions certes fait goûter le double [supplice] de la vie et le double [supplice] de la mort; et ensuite tu n'aurais pas trouvé de secoureur contre Nous. CORAN 17.73

Et ne t'inquiéte pas, j'en ai pleins d'autres en réserve :wink:

Al-Hajj(22) Ayat No: 52
Nous n'avons envoyé, avant toi, ni Messager ni prophète qui n'ait récité . (ce qui lui a été révélé) sans que le Diable n'ait essayé d'intervenir [pour semer le doute dans le cœur des gens au sujet] de sa récitation. Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère, et Allah renforce Ses versets. Allah est Omniscient et Sage.

Peut que le "Ses versets" veulent tout simplement dire ceux de Dieu, non ?
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Salman Rushdie n'est pour rien dans cette histoire qui a été relatée par l'une des plus grandes sommités de l'histoire de l'Islam, j'ai nommé TABARI en personne, une référence incontournable, l'un des plus grands savants de l'Islam de l'avis même des musulmans. Ce n'est pas lui qu'on peut accuser d'islamophobie !

Coran 22:52 :
Nous n'avons envoyé, avant toi, ni Messager ni prophète qui n'ait récité (ce qui lui a été révélé) sans que le Diable n'ait essayé d'intervenir [pour semer le doute dans le cœur des gens au sujet] de sa récitation. Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère, et Allah renforce Ses versets. Allah est Omniscient et Sage.
Intéressant ce verset !
Il vient confirmer l'histoire des versets sataniques plutôt que l'infirmer ! :lol:
  • « Les gens voudraient qu’un imam se lève et prenne la parole devant une foule muette.
    Illusion trompeuse – Il n’est d’imam que la raison.
    »
    Al-Maari
  • « Je suis un non-croyant profondément religieux.
    C'est une religion d'un type quelque peu nouveau.
    »
    Einstein
  • « On a découvert que la terre est sphérique en 1577. » Zakir Naik
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]
Intéressant ce verset !
Il vient confirmer l'histoire des versets sataniques plutôt que l'infirmer !
:lol: :lol: toujours la mème chose .mentir pour duper les autre :lol: :lol:
ibn katir dans son exégese a affirmer que l'histoire n'est pas authentique :lol: :lol:
aussi al baihaki et ibn khouzaima se sont mis d' accord sur l' incredibilité de cette histoire :lol: :lol: :lol:

ibn hazm a dit que c' est un mensonge
al bazar qui a vecu avant tabari a dit que cette histoire a été inventée

Errazi Ibn Arabi le juge 'Iyâdh ., el Qurtubi , Echawkani , El Aloussi Mohammed Abdou…ont rejetés cette hirstoire :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
al albani l' un des savants les plus venéré dans le monde islamique a prouver que tous les chaines de transmission de cette histoire s' arretent a des tabaiines " generation suivant les compagnon "et aucune de ces chaines ne remontes jusqu' un compagnon du prophete que la paix et benidiction soient sur lui :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

al tabari qui a cité cette histoire a dit dans son introduction """ce qui est dans son livre n'est pas automatiquement authentique et vrai"" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
alors ou est l' equité .ah j' ai oublié une chose . comme ca concerne l' islam .alors au diable l' equité . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

comment les idolatres se seraient prosternés alors que le prophete apres a peine 3 versets de ces "" versets sataniques" a affirmer son mepris total pour leurs idoles
Ce ne sont que des noms que vous avez inventés, vous et vos ancêtres. Allah n'a fait descendre aucune preuve à leur sujet. Ils ne suivent que la conjecture et les passions de [leurs] âmes, alors que la guidée leur est venue de leur Seigneur

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Excuse moi mais le verset 52 de la sourate 22 est clair: Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère

فَيَنسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ

Si allah a été obligé d'abroger le verset suggéré par le diable c'est qu'il a bien existé…




Tabari en plus d'être théologien, il était aussi historien. Les théologiens en beau essayer de tergiverser rien ne change le fait que Mahomet a essayé d'attirer vers lui les Quraychites en reconnaissant leurs déesses dans leurs rôles d'intercession…

On est pas obligé d'être borné comme le sont ceux qui sont victime du syndrome du renfermement sectaire. Tu as beau multiplié a l'infini les lol (on voit bien que tu n'as que ça a faire)…cette histoire des versets Gharânig (satanique) a bel est bien eu lieu…
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Tabari en plus d'être théologien, il était aussi historien. Les théologiens en beau essayer de tergiverser rien ne change le fait que Mahomet a essayé d'attirer vers lui les Quraychites en reconnaissant leurs déesses dans leurs rôles d'intercessio
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
1/en islam il n' ya pas de sacralisation des personnes :lol: tabari n' est pas un prophete pour que tu m' oblige de prendre son interpretation comme si c' etais la verité absolu
2/tabari a contredit l' avis de beaucoup de savants venerés par tous les musulmans .Errazi Ibn Arabi le juge 'Iyâdh ., el Qurtubi , Echawkani , El Aloussi Mohammed Abdou ibn hazm ibn katir al baihaki et ibn khouzaima
:lol: :lol: :lol:
3/comment il a reconnu leurs deesses alors qu' il dit apres trois versets ""
Ce ne sont que des noms que vous avez inventés, vous et vos ancêtres. Allah n'a fait descendre aucune preuve à leur sujet. Ils ne suivent que la conjecture et les passions de [leurs] âmes, alors que la guidée leur est venue de leur Seigneur """"":lol: :lol:
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Bonjour Adorerdieu



L'histoire des versets sataniques est écrite dans le Coran.


Sourate 53:19-25

Avez-vous considéré Allat et al Uzza et Manat, cette troisième autre? Ce sont les sublimes déesses et leur intercession est certes souhaitée. Avez-vous le mâle, et lui, la femelle! Cela, alors, serait un partage inique! L'homme a t-il ce qu'il désire? A Allah appartient la première et la dernière.



Plus tard, Muhammad reviendra sur ces déclarations.

Sourate 22:52

Nous n'avons envoyé, avant toi, ni Messager ni prophète qui n'ait récité (ce qui lui a été révélé) sans que le Diable n'ait essayé d'intervenir [pour semer le doute dans le cœur des gens au sujet] de sa récitation. Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère, et Allah renforce Ses versets. Allah est Omniscient et Sage.




Cordialement.



PS: une large gamme de smileys est à votre disposition, pourquoi n'étendre son utilisation qu'à un seul smiley ?
Aimons nous les uns les autres
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Mais

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1)nous ne disposons d'aucune chaîne de transmission "sérieuse" de cette histoire qui remonte directement au prophète passant par un compagnon

2)les savants du hadith précisent que cette histoire est mensongère :
On a demandé a l'imam ibn khuzaima a propos de cette histoire , il répondit : "min wadhi ezzanaadiqa" (est l'œuvre des zindiq - mécréants, infidèles) . vous pourrez trouver une allusion à cette histoire chez Ibn Kathir dans son Taf sir, plus précisément dans le commentaire de la Sourate "Al Hadj". Il y fait référence en attestant que l'histoire n'est pas authentique.

Parmi ces chaînes de transmission on trouve "alkalbi" qui est connu par les gens du hadith comme étant un menteur , son nom est Mohammed ibn assaIb .

3)Des hadiths authentiques (chez boukhari, mouslim, qui sont reconnus comme les hadith authentiques du prophète ) ont étés rapportés sur la prosternation des mécréants de la Mecque mais aucune ne contenait cette histoire de versets sataniques .

4)ce qu'ont rapportés ceux qui aiment ajouter des histoires étranges parmi les exégètes du coran ne constituent en aucun cas une preuve de véracité de cette histoire , Tabari par exemple qui a relaté cette histoire dans son livre : Chronique de Tabari dit à l'introduction que "ce qui est dans son livre n'est pas automatiquement authentique et vrai, mais qu'il ne fait que transmettre ce qui lui a été rapporté"

On n'accepte une parole que si elle est transmise par une tradition authentique depuis les prophètes sws.

5) les divergences apparentes entre les différentes histoires :(il y a 6 histoires) , dans chaque histoire , le verset est différent :

1.
Ces déesses d'un rang élevé et certes leur intercession est souhaitée?????: " ??? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ".
2.
dieux d'un rang élevé et certes leur intercession est souhaitée??????: " ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ".
3.
leur intercession est souhaitée (sans parler de déesses) ???????: " ?? ?????? ????? ". ??? ??? ????????.
4.
et ce sont elles les déesses de rang élevé ???????: " ????? ??? ???????? ????? ".
5.
et que ce sont elles les déesses de rang élevé et que c'est leur intercession qui est souhaitée ???????: " ????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ".
6.
Ces déesses de rang élevé, d'elles l'intercession est souhaitée ???????: " ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ".

Et j'aimerais dire quelques mots sur le verset suivant :

Sourate 22:52

Nous n'avons envoyé, avant toi, ni Messager ni prophète qui n'ait récité (ce qui lui a été révélé) sans que le Diable n'ait essayé d'intervenir [pour semer le doute dans le cœur des gens au sujet] de sa récitation. Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère, et Allah renforce Ses versets. Allah est Omniscient et Sage.

Allah supprime les versets du Diable et renforce les Siens , non ? Le Ses veut peut-etre remplacé Dieu non ? En plus il y'a un "s" majuscule, et dans le Coran a chaque fois qu'on parle de Dieu on met une majuscule, meme quand c'est un pronom etc qui remplace, tandis que le Diable non.

Sourate 72:04

Notre insensé [Iblis] disait des extravagances contre Allah.

Ici par exemple insensé ne pend pas de majuscule tandis que quand on dit Puissant en parlant de Dieu, on met une majuscule.Le plus simple exemple que vous trouvez partout :

Au nom d’Allah, le Tout Miséricordieux, le Très Miséricordieux.
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A propos des versets sataniques:

http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Resp ... verses.htm

(desole pour la presentation, je suis assez presse a l'instant)



Muhammad Spoke the Satanic Verses - The Evidence and Proof

INTRODUCTION

MUHAMMAD SPOKE THE SATANIC VERSES - THE EVIDENCE AND PROOF
THE EVIDENCE: THE EARLY ISLAMIC SOURCES
DISCUSSION / REVIEW OF THE SIRA MATERIAL ON THE SATANIC VERSES.
EVIDENCE FROM SAHIH HADITH THAT MUHAMMAD SPOKE THE SATANIC VERSES
FROM THE QURAN
AN ISLAMIC SCHOLAR'S COMMENTARY (TAFSIR)
OTHER COMMENTS
FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIM'S COMPLAINTS AND DENIALS
CONCLUSIONS
BIBLIOGRAPHY
INTRODUCTION


One of the most embarrassing events in Muhammad's life occurred when Satan put his words in Muhammad's mouth. Muhammad spoke Satan's words as the word of God. This event is documented by several early Muslim scholars and referenced in the Hadith and Quran. Later Muslims, ashamed that their self declared prophet spoke Satan's words, denied the event occurred. A myriad of excuses and denials have been put forth by these later Muhammadans to cover up Muhammad's sinful error.
It must be pointed out again that the "Satanic Verses" event is not something made up by non-Muslims. The event is recorded by the earliest Islamic sources available on Muhammad's life. No one should think that it is a story made up by people who are critical of Islam. It is an episode directly found in the early Islamic records.

This topic is one of the most controversial in Islam. Satan caused Muhammad to recite his words as God's words. The background to this event is that Muhammad and his followers were being persecuted for attacking the pagan faiths of Mecca, and he did not want to further offend his Arab tribesmen, and, he wanted them to become his followers, i.e. Muslims. In fact Muhammad wished that God would not reveal anything further to him that would further alienate his fellow Arabs. So when opportunity arose, he spoke what Satan put into his heart and mind as God's word.

In the Old Testament (OT), if someone caused the people to worship other gods he was put to death - Deuteronomy 13:1 - 5:
"If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents, and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, "Let us follow other gods" (whom you have not known) "and let us serve them," you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul. ... But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken treason against the Lord you God ... So you shall purge the evil from your midst." [1]

This is exactly what Muhammad did - he advocated the worship of pagan deities as intercessors with God. Later, after Muhammad admitted his mistake and took back the words, he had the audacity to say that God made light of the event! God has never made light of sin or false prophets.
Think about it, which of the Old Testament prophets ever spoke the words of Satan? Those prophets loved their people, but they persisted in speaking the truth to them, not compromising the word of God to gain peace and converts as Muhammad did.


MUHAMMAD SPOKE THE SATANIC VERSES - THE EVIDENCE AND PROOF
Muslims frequently use the phrase "bring forth the proof". Well, the proof is presented here.
This event is documented by the four early biographical writers of Muhammad's life: Ibn Ishaq, Wakidi, Ibn Sa'd, and Tabari. The Hadith and Quran also contain direct references. Additionally several other Islamic scholars on Hadith (traditions) support the event's occurrence.
One Islamic book on Muhammad's life provides the following list:
"... many of the traditionalists have recorded it with reference to the chains of its narrators. Among them more commonly known are: al-Tabari, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn al-Mundhir, Ibn Mardauyah, Ibn Ishaq, Musa ibn 'Uqba, and Abu Ma'shar. It is all the more strange that Ibn Hajar, a recognized authority on traditions insists on the truth of this report and says, "As we have mentioned above, three of its chains of narrators satisfy the conditions requisite for an authentic report." [2]

I have found four of the early Islamic biographical sources for this story in English. Therefore, prior to a discussion and analysis of the event, their writings should be reviewed. What first follows are the four accounts related from the 4 early sources:

1) Tabari's "History", published by SUNY, and translated by Watt [3],
2) the "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (The Book of the Major Classes), translated by S. Moinul Haq [4],
3) the "Sirat Rasulallah" (The Life of Allah's Prophet) by Ibn Ishaq, translated by A. Guillaume [5],
4) Wakidi's biographical material on Muhammad also includes the story of Muhammad speaking Satan's words. I have not been able to find Wakidi's entire work in English but Wakidi's work is quoted by W. Muir in "The Life of Mahomet" [6].
5) A sub source from #3 above is found in "New Light on the Life of Muhammad", by A.. Guillaume [7]. This source is from a manuscript containing information from other sources as well as Ibn Ishaq. The writer of the manuscript, Yunus ibn Bukayr, heard Ibn Ishaq's lectures at Kufa (located in modern Iraq), and made notes.
6) Additional supporting evidence will be provided from the Sahih Hadith of Bukhari [8].
7) Finally, verses from the Quran will be provided as concurring evidence that Muhammad spoke the Quranic verses [9]


THE EVIDENCE: THE EARLY ISLAMIC SOURCES
NOTE: My comments will be in [ ] type brackets. Author's brackets will be in ( ) type brackets.
TABARI volume 6, page 107
SATAN CASTS A FALSE REVELATION ON THE MESSENGER OF GOD'S TONGUE

The messenger of God was eager for the welfare of his people and wished to effect a reconciliation with them in whatever ways he could. It is said that he wanted to find a way to do this, and what happened was a follows. (170)
Ibn Humayd - Salamah-Muhammad b. Ishaq - Yazid b. Ziyad al-Madani - Muhammad b. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated with himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed:(171)

"By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire..."
and when he came to the words:

Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
"These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (172)

When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they listened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their prophet, trusting in the message which he had brought and following his example. Those polytheists of the Quraysh and others who were in the mosque (173) likewise prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer orunbeliever, who did not prostrate himself. The one exception was al-Walid b. Al-Mughirah, who was a very old man and could not prostrate himself; but he took a handful of soil from the valley in his hand and bowed over that. Then they all dispersed from the mosque. The Quraysh left delighted by the mention of their gods which they had hared, saying,"Muhammad has mentioned our goes in the most favorable way possible, stating in his recitation that they are the high flying cranes and that their intercession is received with approval."

The news of the prostration reached those of the messenger of God's companions who were in Abyssinia and people said, "The Quraysh have accepted Islam." Some rose up to return, while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, "Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you." Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed:

"Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation (umniyyah). God abrogates what Satan casts. The God established his verses. God is knower, wise. (174)

Thus God removed the sorrow from his messenger, reassured him about that which he had feared and cancelled the words which Satan had cast on his tongue, that their gods were the high flying cranes whose intercession was accepted with approval. He now revealed, following the mention of "al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other," the words:
"Are yours the males and his the females? That indeed were an unfair division! They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers."

to the words:
to whom he wills and accept (175)
This means, how can the intercession of their gods avail with God?
When Muhammad brought a revelation from God canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His prophet, the Quraysh said,"Muhammad has repented of what he said concerning the position of your gods with God, and has altered it and brought something else." Those two phrases which Satan had cast on the tongue of the Messenger of God were in the mouth of every polytheists, and they became even more ill-disposed and more violent in their persecution of those of them who had accepted Islam and followed the messenger of God.

Those of the companions of the messenger of God who had left Abyssinia upon hearing that Quraysh had accepted Islam by prostration themselves with the messenger of God now approached.When they were near Mecca, they heard that the report that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam was false. Not one of them entered Mecca without obtaining protection or entering secretly. Among those who came to Mecca and remained there until they emigrated to al-Madinah and were present with the prophet at Badr, were, from the Banu Abd Shams b. Abd Manaf b. Quasyy, Uthman b. Afafan b. Abi al-As b. Umayyah, accompanied by his wife Ruaqyyah the daughter of the messenger of God; Abu Hudhayfah b. Utbah b. Rabiah b. Abd Shames, accompanied by his wife Sahlah bt. Suhalyl; together with a number of others numbering thirty three men.

Al-Qasim b. Al-Hasan - al Husayn b. Daud - Hajja - Abu Mashar - Muhammad b. Kab al-Qurazi and Muhammad b. Qays: The messenger of God was sitting in a large gathering of Quraysh, wishing that day that no revelation would come to him from God which could cause them to turn away from him. Then God revealed:

"By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived..."
and the Messenger of God recited it until he came to:
"Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?"

when Satan cast on his tongue two phrases:
"These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is to be desired. (176)

He uttered them and went on to complete the surah. When he prostrated himself at the end of the surah, the whole company prostrated themselves with him. Al-Walid b. al-Mughirah raised some dust to his forehead and bowed over that, since he was a very old man and could not prostrate himself. They were satisfied with what Muhammad had uttered and said, "We recognize that it is God who gives life and death, who creates and who provides sustenance, but if these gods of ours intercede for us with him, and if you give them a share, we are with you."

That evening Gabriel came to him and reviewed the surah with him, and when he reached the two phrases which Satan had cast upon his tongue he said, "I did not bring you these two." Then the messenger of God said, "I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to him words which He has not spoken." Then God revealed to him:
"And they indeed strove hard to beguile you away from what we have revealed to you, that you should invent other than it against us...

to the words:
"and then you would have found no helper against us" (177)
He remained grief stricken and anxious until the revelation of the verse:
"Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you... to the words...God is knower, wise. (178)
When those who had emigrated to Abyssinia heard that all the people of Mecca had accepted Islam, they returned to their clans, saying,"They are more dear to us"; but they found that the people had reversed their decision when God cancelled what Satan had cast upon the messenger of God's tongue.
END OF QUOTES

WATT'S NOTES IN TABARI

170) This section is also omitted by Ibn Hisham, perhaps because he felt it was discreditable to the Prophet.
171) Surah 53; the verses quoted are 1-3 and 19-20.
172) An alternative reading to turtada is turtaja, meaning, "is to be desired or hoped for"
173) The sacred area around the Ka'bah was not, of course, and Islamic mosque at this period, though the word masjid, "place of prostration, mosque,"seems to have been applied to it.
174) 22:52. The translation deviates here from that of Pickthall in order to make it correspond with what is required by Tabari's account. The meanings for tamanna and umniyyah, "recite" and "recitation", are well attested (see Lisan s.v.M-N-Y). An alternative rendering for this verse would be: "Never did we send a messenger of a prophet before you but that when he formed a wish Satan threw (some vanity) into his desire..."
175) 53:21-23, 26, Tabari explains diza, "unfair," as meaning 'awja, "crooked."
176) Surah 53. This version of the false verses has la-turja, "to be desired or hoped for."
177) 7:73, 75
178) 22:52

TABARI'S TIMELINE

Hijrah to Abyssinia - page 98
Boycott - page105
Satanic verses spoken by Muhammad- page 107
Muslims return from Abyssinia - page 109
Boycott repealed - page 112
From Ibn Sa'd's "Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir", Volume 1, parts 1 and 2, pages 236 - 239, translated by S. Moinul Haq, published by the Pakistan Historical Society.
[NOTE: I have corrected some spelling and punctuation errors and changed some archaic language].
ACCOUNT OF THE CAUSES OF THE RETURN OF THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET, FROM ABYSSINIA
Muhammad Ibn Umar informed us; he said: Yunus Ibn Muhammad Ibn Fudalah al-Azfari related to me on the authority of his father (second chain) he (Ibn Sa'd) said: Kthir Ibn Zayd related to me on the authority of al-Muttalib Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Hantab; they said: "the apostle of Allah had seen his people departing from him. He was one day sitting alone when he expressed a desire: "I wish, Allah had not revealed to me anything distasteful to them."

Then the apostle of Allah, approached them (Quraysh) and got close to them, and they also came near to him. One day he was sitting in their assembly near the Ka'bah, and he recited: "By the Star when it sets", (1) till he reached, "Have ye thought upon Al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other". (2) Satan made him repeat these two phrases: "These idols are high and their intercession is expected". The apostle of Allah repeated them, and he went on reciting the whole surah and then fell in prostration, and the people also fell in prostration with him. Al-Walid Ibn al-Mughirah, who was an old man and could not prostrate, took a handful of dust to his forehead and prostrated on it. It is said: Abu Uhayhah Sa'id Ibn al-As, being an old man took dust and prostrated on it. Some people say: It was al-Walid who took the dust; others say: It was Abu Uhayhah; while other say: Both did it. They were pleased with what the apostle of Allah had uttered. They said: "We know that Allah gives life and causes death. He creates and gives us provisions, but our deities will intercede with Him, and in what you have assigned to them, we are with you." These words pricked the apostle of Allah.

He was sitting in his house and when it was evening, Gabriel came to him and revised the surah. Then Gabriel said: "Did I bring these two phrases?" The apostle of Allah said: "I ascribed to Allah, what He had not said."
Then Allah revealed to him: "And they indeed strove hard to beguile you (Muhammad) away from that which We have inspired you, that you should invent other than it against Us; and then would they have accepted you as a friend. And if We had not made you wholly firm you might almost have inclined to them a little, Then had We made you taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying then had you found no helper against Us.""(1)

Muhammad Ibn Umar informed us; he said: Muhammad Ibn Abd Allah related to me on the authority of al-Zuhri, he on the authority of Abu Bakr Ibn Abd al-Rahman Ibn al-Harith Ibn Hisham; he said: "This prostration became know to people till the news reached Abyssinia and the Companions of the apostle of Allah that the people of Makkah fell in protraction and joined Islam including al-Walid. Ibn al-Mughirah and Abu Uhayhah who prostrated behind the prophet. The people said: "When such persons have joined Islam, who else remains in Makkah?" They said: "Our relatives are dear to us." So they returned. Where they were at a distance of one hour's walk from Makkah, they confronted some horsemen of Kinanah. They inquired about the Quraysh and their affairs. The horse men said: "Muhammad spoke well of their deities, so they followed him but then they turned apostate. He began to abuse their gods and they began to harm him. We left them in this struggle." They discussed that they should return to Abyssinia; but then they said: "We have reached here, so let us enter (the town), see the Quraysh and visit our families and then return.""
Muhammad Ibn Umar informed us; he said: Muhammad Ibn Abd Allah related to me on the authority of al-Zuhri, he on the authority of Abu Bakr Ibn Abd al Rahman; he said: "They entered Makkah and none entered it except under (some one's) protection; Ibn Masud stayed for a short time and returned to Abyssinia."

Muhammad Ibn Umar said: "They had left (Makkah) in the month of Rajab in the fifth year. There they remained in the months of Shaban and Ramadan. The incident of prostration took place in Ramadan, and they returned in Shawwal in the fifth year."
END OF IBN SA'D QUOTES

HAQ'S NOTES

page 237
1) Quran 53:1
2) Quran 53:19-20
page 238
1) Al-Quran,17:73-75.
IBN SA'D'S TIME SEQUENCE
First Hijrah to Abyssinia - pages 235, 236, 11 men, 4 women, month of Rajab in fifth year after Muhammad claimed to be an apostle
The Blockade against Muhammad's tribe the Hashimites - page 241
Satanic Verses spoken by Muhammad - pages 236 - 239.
1st return to Mecca - pages 238 - 239
Second Hijrah to Abyssinia - pages 239
Return from Abyssinia just after Khaybar - page 240
FROM IBN ISHAQ'S "SIRAT RASULALLAH", translated as, "THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD" by A. Guillaume, page 165 - 167.
"(Tabari). Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. B. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. B. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw what his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down "by the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other (5), Satan, when he was mediating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq (1) whose intercession is approved. (2)" When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods.and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration (3) and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. Al-Mughira who was an old man who could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved."
The news reached the prophet's companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, "What have you done Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. The God sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise. (4). Thus God relieved his prophet's grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation. "Are yours the males and His the females? That were indeed an unfair division" (i.e. most unjust); "they are nothing but names which your fathers gave them" as far as the words "to whom he pleases and accepts" (5) i.e. how can the intercession of their gods avail with Him?

When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from God, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else." Now those two words which Satan had put upon the apostle's tongue were in the mouth of every polytheist and they became more violently hostile to the Muslims and the apostle's followers. Meanwhile those of his companions who had left Abyssinia when they heard that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam when they prostrated themselves with the apostle, heard when they approached Mecca that the report was false and none came into the town without the promise of protection or secretly. Of those who did come into Mecca and stayed there until he migrated to Medina and were present at Badr with him was Uthman B. Affan... with his wife Ruqayya d. of the apostle and Abu Hudhayfa b. Zutba with his wife Sahla d. of Suhayl, and a number of others, in all thirty-three men (1). ...
THE RETURN OF THOSE WHO HAD FLED TO ABYSSINIA
The apostle's companions who had gone to Abyssinia heard that the Meccans had accepted Islamand they set out for the homeland. But when they got near Mecca they learned that the report was false, so that they entered the town under the protection of a citizen or by stealth.

GUILLAUME'S NOTES

Page 165
5) Sura 53: 1-20
Page 166
1) The word is said to mean "Numidian Cranes" which fly at a great height.
2) Another reading is "turjada" "to be hoped for".
3) Mentioned in the last verse of the Sura.
4) Sura 22:51. The following verse is not without relevance in this context: "that He may make what Satan suggested a temptation to those whose hearts are diseased and hardened."
5) Sura 53:19-27
Page 167
1) A parallel tradition from M.b. Ka'd al-Qurazi and M.B. Qays is given by Tabari 1195 - 6.

IBN ISHAQ'S TIMELINE

First Migration to Abyssinia - page 146
Boycott - page 159
Mo speaks Satanic Verses - page 165, 166
Muslims in Abyssinia return from Abyssinia - pages 167, 168
Annulling of the boycott - page 172
ADDITION INFORMATION FROM IBN ISHAQ FROM "NEW LIGHT ON THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD, pages 38, 39:
"The manuscript agrees with Salama's report from Ibn Ishaq that the emigrants returned from Abyssinia because they heard of the conversion of Quraysh in consequence of the concession to polytheism, but strangely enough it does not quote the offending words. Presumable they were deliberately omitted and readers must have known what they were because otherwise the narrative would be unintelligible. Tow verses are referred to, but the second is not quoted. In view of its interest I give a translation of the manuscript:
"(The emigrants) remained where they were until they heard that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam and prostrated themselves. That was because the chapter of The Star (53) had been sent down to Muhammad and the apostle recited it. Both Muslim and polytheist listened to it silently until he reached his words "Have you seen (or, "considered") al-Lat and al-Uzza?" They gave ear to him attentively while the faithful believed (their prophet). Some apostatized when they heard the "saj" of the Satan and said "By Allah we will serve them (the Gharaniq) so that they may bring us near to Allah". The Satan taught these two verses to every polytheist and their tongues too to them easily. This weighed heavily upon the apostle until Gabriel came to him and complained to him of these two verses and the effect that they had upon the people. Gabriel declined responsibility for them and said "You recited to the people something which I did not bring you from God and you said what you were not told to say". The apostle was deeply grieved and afraid. Then God send down by way of comfort to him: "Never did we send an apostle or a prophet before you but when he wished Satan cast a suggestion into his wish" as far as the words "Knowing, Wise"" (Sura 22:51)."

END OF QUOTES FROM "NEW LIGHT ON THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD".
WAKIDI'S WRITINGS ON THE SATANIC VERSES

W. Muir quotes Wakidi as writing:
"On a certain day, the chief men of Mecca, assembled in a group beside the Kaaba, discussed as was their wont the affairs of the city; when Mahomet appeared and, seating himself by them in a friendly manner, began to recite in their hearing the 53 Sura.... "
"And see ye not Lat and Ozza, and Manat the third besides?"
"When he had reached this verse, the devil suggested an expression of the thoughts which for many a day had possessed his soul; and put into his mouth words of reconciliation and compromise, the revelation of which he had been longing for from God, namely;
"These are the exalted Females, and verily their intercession is to be hoped for"
"The Coreish were surprised and delighted with this acknowledgement of their deities; and as Mahomet wound up the /Sura with the closing words
"Wherefore bow down before God, and serve Him"
"the whole assembly prostrated themselves with one accord on the ground and worshipped. Walid alone, the son of Mughira, unable from the infirmities of age to bow down, took a handful of earth and worshipped, pressing it to his forehead."
"And all the people were pleased at that which Mahomet had spoke, and they began to say,
"Now we know that it is the Lord alone that give life and takes it away, that created and supports. These our goddesses make intercession with Him for us; and as thou has conceded unto them a portion, we are content to follow thee". But their words disquieted Mahomet, and he retired to his house. In the evening Gabriel visited him; and the prophet recited the Sura unto him. And Gabriel said, "What is this that thou has done? Thou has repeated before the people words that I never gave unto thee". So Mahomet grieved sore, and feared the Lord greatly; and he said, "I have spoken of God that which He had not said." But the Lord comforted His prophet, and restored his confidence, and cancelled the verse, and revealed the true reading thereof (as it now stands), namely,
"And see ye not Lat and Ozza, and Manat the third beside? What! Shall there be male progeny unto you, and female unto him? That were indeed an unjust partition! They are naught but names, which ye and your Fathers have invented, etc." END OF MUIR'S QUOTES FROM WAKIDI

DISCUSSION / REVIEW OF THE SIRA MATERIAL ON THE SATANIC VERSES.
All four of the biographies agree on all the primary facts:
1) Muhammad did not want to further offend the Meccans and he did not want God to reveal something to him that would cause further offence.
2) Muhammad desired a revelation that would bring peace between he and the Meccans.
3) When Muhammad began to recite the chapter called "The Star", Satan interjected some words and thoughts into Muhammad's heart and mind. This was coupled with Muhammad's own desires; thus Muhammad spoke Satan's words.
4) Later, Gabriel rebuked Muhammad for having spoken Satan's words. Muhammad admitted his sinful error and was then comforted by Allah.
The accounts are very similar. Each contains minor different details, but all agree totally on the relevant essentials points; Muhammad spoke the Satanic verses. The fact that all of the earliest Islamic sources agree on the event is substantial evidence that it occurred.

EVIDENCE FROM SAHIH HADITH THAT MUHAMMAD SPOKE THE SATANIC VERSES

There are references to the event found in Bukhari. Although the actual Satanic verses are not recorded by Bukhari, part of the event is related:
6.385 Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him.
What is of note here is that the Hadith states that after Muhammad spoke "The Star", the pagans prostrated. This is exactly what the four biographers state. Remember, the pagans were totally opposed to Muhammad. They disliked him; he frequently insulted their faith. Yet here, something Muhammad said, caused them to prostrate with him and the Muslims, in "one accord". Muhammad had said something persuasive to move them to bow in worship. Of course it was the Satanic verses. There is no allusion to anything else in the biographical material. Neither is anything specifically recorded in Sahih Hadith or the Quran that refers to other than the Satanic Verses event.
Note again how this Hadith lines up with the four biographies.

FROM THE QURAN

There are three passages in the Quran that reference the event. These passages are recorded in the biographical material. The first is the actual passage found in chapter 53, called "The Star", (An-Najm), verses 19 through 26 or so. This passage has already been mentioned.
The second passage is in chapter 22, called "The Pilgrimage", (Al-Hajj), verses 52, 53:
"Never have We sent a single prophet or apostle before you with whose wishes Satan did not tamper. But God abrogates the interjections of Satan and confirms His own revelations. God is all-knowing and wise. He makes Satan's interjections a temptation for those whose hearts are diseased, whose hearts are hardened ...
The third passage is chapter 17, called "The Night Journey", (Al Isra), verses 73 - 75:
"They sought to entice you from Our revelations - they nearly did -hoping that you might invent some other scripture in Our name, and thus become their trusted friend. Indeed had we not strengthened your faith, you might have made some compromise with them and thus incurred a double punishment in this life and in the next. Then you should have found none to help you against Us."
All of these verses are mentioned in the biographical material. All of them were revealed in relation to Muhammad speaking Satan's words.
Note how Tabari records Muhammad's admittance of sin and repentance after Gabriel confronted him with his error. Afterwards, God supposedly comforts Muhammad with the verses from chapters 17 and 22. Ibn Sa'd records the same sequence of verses. After he admitted his sinful error, Muhammad was comforted by Gabriel. Who was this Gabriel?
See the webpage below for more material dealing with Muhammad interactions with "Gabriel" and Satan..

AN ISLAMIC SCHOLAR'S COMMENTARY (TAFSIR)

One of the greatest Islamic scholars who wrote a Tafsir was Zamakhshari. He commented on this event as well.Here is his writings, quoted from "The Quran and its Exegesis, by Helmut Gatje, pages 53 - 55, published by Oneworld, Oxford, England [10].
"The faithful rendering of the revelation Zamakhshari on Sura 22:52/51
We have never sent any messenger of prophet before thee, but that Satan cast into his fancy, when he was fancying; but God annuls what Satan casts, then God confirms His signs - surely God is All-knowing, All-wise.
.. The occasion of the sending down of the present verse is the following: As the members of the tribe of the messenger of God turned away from him and took their stand against him and his relatives also opposed him and refused to be guided by what he brought to them, then, as a result of the extreme exasperation concerning their estrangement and as a result of the eager desire and longing that they be converted to Islam, the messenger of God sheltered the wish that nothing would come down to him that could make them shy away. Perhaps he should have been able to use that for the purpose of converting them and causing them to be dissuaded from their error and obstinacy. Now this wish continued in him until the sura called "The Star" (that is, Sura 53) came down. At that time he found himself with this wish in his heart regarding the members of his tribe. Then he began to recite, and when he came to God's words "and Manat, the third, the other" (Sura 53:20), Satan substituted something in accordance with the wish which the messenger of God had sheltered, that is, he whispered something to him which would enable the messenger to announce his wish. In an inadvertent and misleading manner, his tongue hurried on ahead of him, so that he said: "These (goddesses are the) exalted cranes. Their intercession (with God) is to be hoped for."...Yet, the messenger of God was not clear at this point until the protection of God "isma" reached him and he then became attentive again.
Some say that Gabriel drew his attention to it, or that Satan himself spoke those words and brought them to the people's hearing. As soon as the messenger of God prostrated (for prayer) as the end of the sura, all who were present did it with him and felt pleased (that is, the unbelievers felt pleased that their goddesses had been accepted as intercessors with God).




Suite: http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Resp ... verses.htm
Dernière modification par meteo le ven. 15 déc. 2006 20:45, modifié 2 fois.
Femme ronde tu es exquise
Tes lèvres larges me fascinent
Tu respires la joie de vivre
J'apprécie tes formes magiques et sensuelles
Tes rondeurs synonymes de vie
D'abondance de féminité de plaisir
Je veux que tu sois heureuse de monde
gandhi
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Résume

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Meteo,en clair ca donne quoi ? Je ne suis pas parfaitement anglophone alors si tu pouvais traduire ou dire ce qui est marqué en bref ca m'aiderait beaucoup et sinon tu peux toujours analyser les 6 points que j'ai mis un peu plus haut,je te les remets comme même :

1)nous ne disposons d'aucune chaîne de transmission "sérieuse" de cette histoire qui remonte directement au prophète passant par un compagnon

2)les savants du hadith précisent que cette histoire est mensongère :
On a demandé a l'imam ibn khuzaima a propos de cette histoire , il répondit : "min wadhi ezzanaadiqa" (est l'œuvre des zindiq - mécréants, infidèles) . vous pourrez trouver une allusion à cette histoire chez Ibn Kathir dans son Taf sir, plus précisément dans le commentaire de la Sourate "Al Hadj". Il y fait référence en attestant que l'histoire n'est pas authentique.

Parmi ces chaînes de transmission on trouve "alkalbi" qui est connu par les gens du hadith comme étant un menteur , son nom est Mohammed ibn assaIb .

3)Des hadiths authentiques (chez boukhari, mouslim, qui sont reconnus comme les hadith authentiques du prophète ) ont étés rapportés sur la prosternation des mécréants de la Mecque mais aucune ne contenait cette histoire de versets sataniques .

4)ce qu'ont rapportés ceux qui aiment ajouter des histoires étranges parmi les exégètes du coran ne constituent en aucun cas une preuve de véracité de cette histoire , Tabari par exemple qui a relaté cette histoire dans son livre : Chronique de Tabari dit à l'introduction que "ce qui est dans son livre n'est pas automatiquement authentique et vrai, mais qu'il ne fait que transmettre ce qui lui a été rapporté"

On n'accepte une parole que si elle est transmise par une tradition authentique depuis les prophètes sws.

5) les divergences apparentes entre les différentes histoires :(il y a 6 histoires) , dans chaque histoire , le verset est différent :

1.
Ces déesses d'un rang élevé et certes leur intercession est souhaitée?????: " ??? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ".
2.
dieux d'un rang élevé et certes leur intercession est souhaitée??????: " ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ".
3.
leur intercession est souhaitée (sans parler de déesses) ???????: " ?? ?????? ????? ". ??? ??? ????????.
4.
et ce sont elles les déesses de rang élevé ???????: " ????? ??? ???????? ????? ".
5.
et que ce sont elles les déesses de rang élevé et que c'est leur intercession qui est souhaitée ???????: " ????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ".
6.
Ces déesses de rang élevé, d'elles l'intercession est souhaitée ???????: " ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ".
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Re: Résume

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gandhi a écrit : 1)nous ne disposons d'aucune chaîne de transmission "sérieuse" de cette histoire qui remonte directement au prophète passant par un compagnon
Pas besoin, le verset est clair:

Al-Hajj(22).52. Nous n'avons envoyé, avant toi, ni Messager ni prophète qui n'ait récité . (ce qui lui a été révélé) sans que le Diable n'ait essayé d'intervenir [pour semer le doute dans le cœur des gens au sujet] de sa récitation. Allah abroge ce que le Diable suggère, et Allah renforce Ses versets. Allah est Omniscient et Sage.

فَيَنسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ
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Bonjour à tous

Gandhi a écrit :nous ne disposons d'aucune chaîne de transmission "sérieuse" de cette histoire qui remonte directement au prophète passant par un compagnon
Relisez votre Coran, des versets en parlent, c'est dans la sourate de l'étoile.

Sourate 53:19-25

Avez-vous considéré Allat et al Uzza et Manat, cette troisième autre? Ce sont les sublimes déesses et leur intercession est certes souhaitée. Avez-vous le mâle, et lui, la femelle! Cela, alors, serait un partage inique! L'homme a t-il ce qu'il désire? A Allah appartient la première et la dernière.





Cordialement.
Aimons nous les uns les autres
gandhi
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L'étoile (An-Najm) : 19-23



19.Que vous en semble [des divinités] Lat et Uzza,

20.ainsi que Manat, cette troisième autre ?

21.Sera-ce à vous le garçon et à Lui la fille ?

22.Que voilà donc un partage injuste !

23.Ce ne sont que des noms que vous avez inventés, vous et vos ancêtres. Allah n'a fait descendre aucune preuve à leur sujet. Ils ne suivent que la conjecture et les passions de [leurs] âmes, alors que la guidée leur est venue de leur Seigneur.

24.Ou bien l'homme aura-t-il tout ce qu'il désire ?

25.A Allah appartiennent la vie future et la vie d'ici-bas.


Voilà moi ce que je vois a partir du verset 19 à 23 de la sourate "L'étoile" (An-Najm) et le Prophéte insiste bien sur le fait que c'est eux qu'ils ont inventés les noms, voir surtout le verset 23.
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meteo
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Re: Résume

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gandhi a écrit :Meteo,en clair ca donne quoi ? Je ne suis pas parfaitement anglophone alors si tu pouvais traduire ou dire ce qui est marqué en bref ca m'aiderait beaucoup
Je fais appel a une ame charitable, ou alors il faudra que tu patientes (plusieurs mois voire annees, l'annee derniere je me suis presque bousille mes etudes a cause de ces debats, et actuellement il y a une queue enorme de forums, emails, etc..., en attente d'une reponse de ma part. Cet ete j'essayais de repondre personnellement a ceux qui m'ecrivaient depuis mon site, ca me prenait plusieurs heures par jours. Actuellement j'ai la fleme de traduire ce texte.

1)nous ne disposons d'aucune chaîne de transmission "sérieuse" de cette histoire qui remonte directement au prophète passant par un compagnon
A vrai dire il y a des sahis qui font allusion a cet evenement, mais de maniere... etrange... (cf. texte que j'ai copie, vers la fin). Comme si on avait essaye apres coup de cacher une partie de ce qui s'est passe. En ce qui concerne le Coran, certains versets font allusion a cet evenement. Bien sur, la plupart des musulmans actuels le nient et interpretent ces versets autrement: car cet episode est effectivement plus que problematique, et comme le Coran doit absolument avoir raison quoi qu'il en soit, ils utiliseront tout ce qu'ils pourront pour affirmer que ces versets ont une autre signification, meme si le contraire semble bien plus probable.
2)les savants du hadith précisent que cette histoire est mensongère :
On a demandé a l'imam ibn khuzaima a propos de cette histoire , il répondit : "min wadhi ezzanaadiqa" (est l'œuvre des zindiq - mécréants, infidèles) . vous pourrez trouver une allusion à cette histoire chez Ibn Kathir dans son Taf sir, plus précisément dans le commentaire de la Sourate "Al Hadj". Il y fait référence en attestant que l'histoire n'est pas authentique.
Premierement: ca depend lesquels. Deuxiemement: il n'est pas etonnant que les "savants" musulmans aient envie de considerer cette histoire comme fausse. Les savants de l'islam ne sont pas neutres, ils ont un certain desir apologetique, une envie de convaincre. D'ailleurs, certains propagandistes de l'islam sont prets a toutes les malhonnetetes possibles pour convaincre, et/ou pour dissimuler ce qui est problematique dans leur religion. J'ai des exemples bien precis, j'en ai cites sur mon site: http://www.anti-religion.net/tromperies_islam.htm , http://www.anti-religion.net/hamidoullah.htm .

Parmi ces chaînes de transmission on trouve "alkalbi" qui est connu par les gens du hadith comme étant un menteur , son nom est Mohammed ibn assaIb. Des hadiths authentiques (chez boukhari, mouslim, qui sont reconnus comme les hadith authentiques du prophète ) ont étés rapportés sur la prosternation des mécréants de la Mecque mais aucune ne contenait cette histoire de versets sataniques .
Finallement, tu evoques toi-meme ce probleme. Ces hadiths ne te semblent pas un peu bizzare? Pourquoi les mecquois se seraient prosternes avec Mohammed, etant donne qu'ils refusaient sa religion? Est-ce que tu ne penses pas que ce serait plutot le contraire, qu'on a tout fait apres coup pour dissimuler cet episode facheux?

4)ce qu'ont rapportés ceux qui aiment ajouter des histoires étranges parmi les exégètes du coran ne constituent en aucun cas une preuve de véracité de cette histoire , Tabari par exemple qui a relaté cette histoire dans son livre : Chronique de Tabari dit à l'introduction que "ce qui est dans son livre n'est pas automatiquement authentique et vrai, mais qu'il ne fait que transmettre ce qui lui a été rapporté"
Il ne s'agit pas de preuve absolue mais de forte probabilite. Quand un auteur cite un evenement qui lui est defavorable, la probabilite pour que ce soit vrai est particulierement importante. Les exegetes avaient tout interet a considerer que cette histoire n'etait pas authentique. Ils se tiraient une balle dans le pied en la considerant comme authentique. Et pourtant, certains l'ont fait. D'ailleurs, la fin de ton paragraphe peut porter a erreur: on aurait l'impression que Tabari ne fait que citer cette histoire a titre indicatif sans porter de jugement personnel. C'est sans doute ce que voulait l'auteur de l'article d'ou tu as tire ce paragraphe. Pourtant, certains passages de Tabari montrent que ce dernier considairait l'histoire comme authentique.

On n'accepte une parole que si elle est transmise par une tradition authentique depuis les prophètes sws.
On n'est sur a 100 pourcents de rien, c'est juste une question de probabilite. Si je te citais par exemple le sahih selon lequel la femme ejacule, et si elle ejacule avant l'homme l'enfant ressemblera a sa mere et inversement, probablement me repondras-tu que ce hadith n'est pas authentique. Pourtant, il est considere comme autehntique par la tradition. Attention a ce que le critere ne devienne pas: "Je rejette ce qui me donne tord vis-a-vis des incroyants, et je garde ce qui m'arrange".
5) les divergences apparentes entre les différentes histoires :(il y a 6 histoires) , dans chaque histoire , le verset est différent :

1.
Ces déesses d'un rang élevé et certes leur intercession est souhaitée?????: " ??? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ".
2.
dieux d'un rang élevé et certes leur intercession est souhaitée??????: " ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ".
3.
leur intercession est souhaitée (sans parler de déesses) ???????: " ?? ?????? ????? ". ??? ??? ????????.
4.
et ce sont elles les déesses de rang élevé ???????: " ????? ??? ???????? ????? ".
5.
et que ce sont elles les déesses de rang élevé et que c'est leur intercession qui est souhaitée ???????: " ????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ".
6.
Ces déesses de rang élevé, d'elles l'intercession est souhaitée ???????: " ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ".
La sounna n'est pas exempte de contradictions (exemple: les hadiths au sujet de l'interdiction de representer des etres vivants, ils racontent des histoires contradictoires). L'histoire des "versets sataniques" n'y echappe pas.


Conclusion: au sujet de ces "versets sataniques" (comme au sujet de beaucoup de choses) on ne peut rien prouver au sens strict, mais de mon point de vue il y a une forte probabilite pour que Mohammed aie effectivement lache du lest en ce qui concerne le monotheisme pour tenter de gagner les mecquois. Ce n'est pas la seule fois que Mohammed se compromet avec le paganisme. Meme l'islam actuel n'en est pas exempt (pierre noire par exemple).
Dernière modification par meteo le ven. 15 déc. 2006 21:31, modifié 1 fois.
Femme ronde tu es exquise
Tes lèvres larges me fascinent
Tu respires la joie de vivre
J'apprécie tes formes magiques et sensuelles
Tes rondeurs synonymes de vie
D'abondance de féminité de plaisir
Je veux que tu sois heureuse de monde
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